Our guest on this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast is Alycia Kinchloe, Founder and CEO of Kinchloe Law in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Prior to starting her own firm, Alycia managed a midsize firm for several years, hiring and training attorneys and staff and helping to expand the firm from 1 to 140 team members. She currently practices family law, leads A House Divided Podcast to provide resources for the community to help create stronger families, and provides business expertise with other entrepreneurs on the Growth Goal Podcast.
Alycia says, “Our goal is to build stronger communities and families through the way that we choose our clients, the way that we advocate for cases, and also the way that we provide community engagement.”
We chat about Alycia finding her calling in the legal field and staying steadfast on her path, as well as:
- Building a broad perspective of every role in a firm to manage more effectively
- What to do when you realize you’ve been working for someone else’s dream
- Best ways to approach the challenges of switching practice areas of law
- Identifying a need in her community and defying traditional gender roles
- Empowering parents and building stronger families through education of their rights
- And more.
Mentioned in this episode:
Davina Frederick: Hello and welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. We believe all women lawyers deserve to be wealthy women lawyers. Our mission is to provide thought provoking, powerful and practical information to help you in creating your own sustainable wealth generating law firm without overwork or overwhelm so you can live your best life. I’m your host, Davina Frederick, and I’m so excited for you to meet our guest today. So let’s get started.
Please join me in welcoming Alycia Kinchloe, founder and CEO of Kinchloe Law in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We’re really excited to have Alycia here with us today, because not only is she the founder of her own law firm, but prior to that she managed a midsize firm for several years, including hiring and training attorneys and staff and helping to grow that firm from one to 140 team members.
She’s been called superstar lawyer, no nonsense, goal oriented, responsive and reality based by her clients. And we’re really happy to have her here today on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to becoming an attorney and and how your career kind of got started.
Alycia Kinchloe: Sure. So I am an army brat. My father is retired military, I spent most of my youth moving around every two years to another location, other school. But I recall being in Georgia and at a very young age, realizing that I wanted to be an attorney, and I can kind of tell you how that started. I I’m sure you probably remember. Colombo, right? The show?
Davina: Oh, yeah!
Alycia: And I remember watching that as a kid and like the second or third grade, I’m like, I love what he does. I love that he gets to solve these crimes, he kind of always the last minute figured out the last clue and puts it all together. Like that’s what I want to do. And then I remember, you know, after that kind of seeing Matlock so another one kind of aging myself a little bit. And then you know, seeing Matlock going into the courtroom and argue that case, it was it was a click, it was something that I realized, like, no, this is it, going into the courtroom, arguing for my client, defending them advocating for them.
It was something that I think kind of connected with, even at that age, a realization that I like helping people. And I think that was the connection was no, I get to actually see the person work with them and help them and really just realizing it at that age. And I can tell you that, you know, just from talking to people, even with my children now, having an understanding of what I thought I really wanted to do at a young age, made it I don’t wanna say easier, but it definitely helped in my preparing myself for this journey. So I think that’s kind of how I got started. And really, I haven’t wavered. You know, it really, this is still the thing that I love to do.
Davina: Wow. See, I love that story. I did. I think it’s it’s so wonderful when I hear stories of people who knew from a very young age, what they wanted to do, because that was definitely not me. And definitely, I can relate to the whole, you know, Matlock and Colombo thing and dating myself. But tell us them where that where that journey to becoming an attorney took you. Law School and first job and what that was like for you.
Alycia: And I will say I did have a backup plan. So my backup plan was that if I, you know, didn’t like being a lawyer, I would be a psychologist. So I think there still goes with my wanting to help people. So that was kind of my plan B was Yeah, right now I’ll be a psychologist, probably still a forensic psychologist, maybe but a psychologist. And so that was kind of in my back pocket.
But again, like kind of keeping in with knowing or having an idea what I wanted to do early on. I remember at the age of, I think about 15 years old, my family’s originally from the Philadelphia area, but at the time we were living, I think, in Oklahoma. Oklahoma or Tennessee. And for the summer, I came to stay with my grandparents and my mother’s twin sister, and they got me into a program, I think is a greater Philadelphia urban coalition program that would match children with the job they wanted to do.
When I was about 15 years old, I had an opportunity to work in a law firm. It was a small practice in North Philadelphia, but it exposed me to a lot of different things working directly with a lawyer talking to clients. And again, you know, I think that further solidify like hey, I am in the right area. I’m getting a little bit more knowledge a little bit more footing. This is working the lat my last year of school, my father had orders to South Korea. I ended up moving from Oklahoma to Philadelphia for my last year of high school.
And right that summer right before and that was challenging. I tell you that I was doing really well in the school that I was in in Oklahoma, and didn’t want to move. I wanted to just stay back and let the rest of my family go and say with my friends, my last year there, but I had no choice. Yeah, the parents decide that.
Davina: Yeah, parents.
Alycia: The the year before my senior year started, I went back to that same program. And I was put with a different law practice the actually it was Borbin Shore & Newman, so it was the son of one of the partners. But I was I was kind of paired with him. And during that summer, I worked with him, did really well. And he asked me to stay on during the school year. Now, because I had come from a place where I was in a lot of advanced classes in Oklahoma.
When I got to the school that I got to Philadelphia, they didn’t have a lot of the classes that I would need, like they basically was nothing for me to take. So I had what was called a work roster. And I was able to leave school, you know, midday after doing my two or three classes that I could do, and I will go to work for the last half of the day. And I yeah, and I continue to work for that attorney. And then a couple of months after that he actually started his own practice. So I was his very first employee at his practice a Social Security Disability practice, in my senior year of high school.
Davina: Wow. So did you continue working there through college and law school?
Alycia: I worked there for half of my life. Wow, I ended up working there. Through the rest of high school through college. I went to Temple University in Philadelphia, which is about six subway stops from is that from the law firm. I worked there through undergrad and then I went to their law school, Temple Law in the evening.
So I went, I worked full time during the day. And I went to law school during the night. And part of that was because I was the oldest of five children. And I really felt like I had a responsibility to make it easier on my parents to not have to support me as much. So even during college, I kept two to three jobs. You know, I did what I could to kind of lessen the burden on my parents, for little children that came behind me. But yeah, I worked through law school. And when I came out of law school, I of course, had a position there.
Davina: Wow, wow. So, that firm, the reason I said I’m so excited in the intro to talk with you, partially because of that experience of working with that law firm and kind of ultimately helping to manage and grow that law firm. With from one to 140 team members, is so many law firm owners struggle with the hiring and the training part. So I’m excited to talk with you about that, and talk about what that experience was like, for you in doing that and how you sort of develop those skills. And then maybe you can give us some insight and how we can be better at it.
Alycia: Absolutely. So I know for me, I think one of the thing was, things were that I worked my way all the way up. So from being a file clerk that literally started as filing and they remember doing dictation.
Davina: Yeah! One of my first professional jobs was in was working for an architectural firm, and I would have to listen to dictation. And I typed that up.
Alycia: Yes, yes. Now you just speak into a microphone and everything for us. But yeah, so I worked my way all the way up. And I think that having the ability to understand how each job was done, when you actually do it helps you to be able to better train people to be able to better troubleshoot issues to be able to even manage people, because you understand you think more uniquely about what it takes to do the job.
And then by the time I came out of law study, one or two years, after passing the bar, I became the managing associate, mostly because there was a void there. And my boss at the time trusted me because I had been with him for so long at that point. And at that point, I was managing the rest of the office everyone except for the attorneys. So I became the managing associate at that point, but I will tell you that I did feel like one you know, I was dealing with attorney and a managing attorney several years my senior, I didn’t have as much experience in just the practice of law, actually go into court and doing it.
And then when it came up to some of the other things, you know, making decisions understanding conversion rates, the The attorney that I worked for, he was very business driven. I say he’s in an entrepreneur that happens to be a lawyer. So he was very numbers based. And to a certain extent, you know, that probably so greater to law school didn’t teach back then how to manage a law firm, we talked about how to choose like lawyers, but not how to manage an actual law firm. So because I felt like I was lacking in those skills, Davina, I went to business school, I actually went in to business school on the weekends, and at St. Joe’s University, and obtain a an executive MBA.
Alycia: And that was a great experience, because I think it filled the gap in a lot of the things that I didn’t gain and that I wasn’t gaining, but by trial and fire on the job, that, you know, really kind of helped me to look at things from a different point of view.
Davina: Right, right. So what what ultimately led you to decide to start your own firm.
Alycia: So I think, you know, I think it’s like, looking back at the fact that I was putting so much blood, sweat and tears into somebody else’s dream. You know, I literally was, again, the first employee, and I’m seeing this, you know, go to a national firm at this point. A lot of my time, you know, has been in was in that particular job. And then also looking up, I started when I was 16 years old, and I’m in my, you know, close to my 30s.
At this point, I put it in to the beginning of my 30s and realizing that I spent half my life somewhere. And I think when you kind of had that realization that you literally have built something for somebody else that you could have possibly have been building for yourself, to pass on to your children to to benefit from, I think you kind of have to stand back and look at that. And then I also saw that there wasn’t a lot of opportunity for me to grow.
Like I went to business school, partly to get the skills I needed to do the job well. But also because I was a little bit bored, you know, I needed a ride. And, you know, I saw there was more than I wanted to do. And there was also the realization I think a lot of lawyers probably have this realization at some point, too. Sometimes you think about whether or not you really want to be a lawyer. And I think we realize that it’s not always because we don’t want to be a lawyer, we just end up in the wrong practice.
Now, I love doing Social Security Disability Law, I love that work. I love the people that I help. I love being an advocate. But I also realized that I happen to spend half my life in this job simply because someone at some agency pairs me with this firm when I was 16. Right? That wasn’t a choice I actively made for myself. And I needed to explore what it meant to be a lawyer in other areas. And to do this work that I love.
Davina: Yeah, I think you bring up a really interesting point there. Oftentimes, we sort of wind up in careers, because it sort of happens to us based on you know, an opportunity that comes along, when we’re just starting out as lawyers. And and I think it takes a lot of courage to say I’m going to, I’m going to take the risk of, you know, learning something new, what made you decide on family law?
Alycia: Absolutely. One advocate, again, keeping with the wanting to be an advocate. So one of the things that I started doing before I left the practice was, we saw where social security, the Social Security practice was going, there was a lot more governmental oversight, there were a lot of changes coming down the pike that might have, you know, I guess, changed our profitability, and the way that we were handling things being a volume crisis. And so because of that, you know, we look to mitigate some of that by bringing in other practice areas. And so we kind of got I got to explore a little bit with that. We brought in more personal injury brought in workers comp, some civil rights.
And Family Law was one of the things that we looked at, because a lot of our clients were having issues with that. And as I kind of got to play with that a little bit, it was an interest that sparked in me, a little bit of that fire that I felt that had gone away. And so when I left, so that we could talk a little bit about my transition, but when I left, I actually started out doing disability, Family Law and business and the business because I did have an MBA, so it makes sense, and I love business.
Alycia: And the disability I continue to do because I loved it. And I’ve done it for 16 years at this point, everybody knew that that’s what I was good at. And it definitely helped doing contract work in that initial transition. But the family law just kept pulling at me. But it was it was hard being what I call like a seasoned novice. I’m a lawyer but a lawyer for a while now, but at the same time I’m a newbie, I don’t know the judges, I don’t know the players. I don’t know the law. I’m learning everything all over again and it can be disconcerting to step out and do that.
Davina: Yeah, yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about how you did that. Because I think there are a lot I see a lot in lawyer discussion groups on social media, a lot of attorneys. And also, in discussing with my clients, a lot of attorneys want to switch practice areas, but they feel like I’ve entrenched in this one for so long, how do I possibly switch to a different practice areas? Tell us what you did?
Alycia: So one of the things I did was I met with several lawyers in the in those areas, I asked them, I took them to lunch, you know, and I asked them, What do you love about it? What do you hate about it? What are some things I should know, and, you know, I have a little notebook. And I just kind of just kept looking at this notebook and just kind of play those things out. One of the things that I feel that people who have been in a practice area, and for a long time that wants to switch can do is to find where that last practice area and the new one intersect and leverage that.
So for me, it was taking looking at social security, and understanding that, okay, here’s a connection with child support, where people I saw there’s more and more as I went to court for child support cases, people didn’t understand how social security benefits interplays with child support, and I could really kind of talk to that, and then understand to about how some disabilities affect your ability to have your custody of your child.
And because I was able to take these two places and intersect them, I was able to show people who knew me only for social security disability that, oh, she’s doing support our support law or custody law. Now, if I had these cases, I send them over to her. But what it also did was it gave me a sense of confidence, because that was something I knew really well. And when I went into court, I could talk about Social Security disability benefits.
I can even tell you, kind of downside, if you got a particular judge how long it would take you to get a decision. And because I was able to kind of build on that foundation, it gave me the confidence, I need to continue to move forward. And like I said, it made it easier for people who knew me only as one thing to see the transition, and they still see me as an expert in some in some way.
Davina: Yeah, see, I that. That’s wonderful advice. And I love I love that one of the things that, you know, that I recommend to people is they look for skill overlap. But what I love that you’re sharing, not only skill overlap, but also you know, we’re overlaps in your practice area, because there are those intersections oftentimes. So that that is great. So tell us about your firm, tell us about Kinchloe Law, and what you guys do now and kind of how you decided to niche down?
Alycia: Sure, so after, you know, after the first year or so I definitely saw that the family law was the thing that was really kind of coming in. I love the business, the business law, but I didn’t love doing it right. I love talking about business. So I started a podcast. So you know, we don’t have to always do everything that excites us, that doesn’t have to be the thing that we do for our monthly net, we can just do that as a hobby. And I kind of learned that some of these things that I enjoy didn’t have to be my practice area.
So I will still take disability cases, I will still do some of those things. But I’m not doing any business law anymore. I’m just doing the family law. And what I look for there to kind of going back to you know, even from a younger age, and then from the disability work, being an advocate, again, has always been what’s spoken to me. And so I found that there was a group of people who seem like they needed my help more than others. And that was fathers fighting for custody.
And so as I saw that I had an opportunity to really kind of empower people, educate people. And I think, in definitely in a in the black community kind of work with that idea that fathers don’t want to be present which I believe is a complete untruth. But it changed it can help change the narrative, will we show that there are fathers fighting for the custodial rights. So finding that I think finding my people in that way, the people that I can help has definitely been beneficial to create a practice. Now we do work with a lot of women, so but our fathers definitely are the ones that we see, we usually just need a lot more help and understanding and navigating the system in a fair way.
Davina: Yeah, what let’s let’s delve into that just a little bit. Because, you know, that is that is a common thought in the black community that people have this belief that there’s this absentee father, but you’re seeing a lot of fathers really fighting for their rights. Do you think there’s kind of a lack of knowledge about their rights and how to go about that.
Alycia: I think there’s a lot of things there, Davina I think, historically, you know, black men have not trusted the court system. And we sometimes think of that as just in criminal court. But it’s not it’s all forms of court, I can’t tell you how many times that my dads have told me that they don’t even want to walk into the building, that they will give up. If there’s an issue that may bring them into court, they will give up without even trying, because the anxiety, the fear, that of going into the court system, give them and then you know, they don’t want, they feel like when they walk in there, it’s because they’re deadbeats, because they don’t want anything to do with their children, even if they’re going there to fight for their child.
They feel that a lot of judges are really looking at them as not wanting to be there or having done something wrong. And so sometimes my work is convincing men to continue to fight, especially in situations where they’re clearly the better parent and share not even to share custody, but primary custody.
So sometimes they get so upset, discouraged from continuing the fight. But I think it’s part of not trusting the court system. And I think it’s historically for all men. The idea that women are the primary caregivers, we have traditional gender roles that have spoken to that. And that no matter what happens, Mom, we are going to walk in under saying that mom has primary custody and I get whatever’s left over. And you know, that’s not the rule. There’s no gender preference. And people are sometimes shocked to even hear that. But that’s the case.
Davina: Right. Because it doesn’t fit with what they’ve been told and their reality maybe in in life, yeah, how they’ve been treated before or whatever.
Davina: So that really is a very powerful it sounds like he really did is a very powerful place for you to be an advocate in something that’s really needed.
Alycia: I feel that it’s good work that we do. And part of the mission of Kinchloe Law is not just to be a you know, we’re not trying to be a profitable law firm, our goal is to build stronger communities and families. And that is through the way that we choose our clients, the way that we advocate for cases. And also the way that we provide community engagement. So we do free seminars, as we do it every June around Father’s Day.
But we’ll often do it several times throughout the year, we’ll do free father’s rights seminars. So people if they can’t afford a lawyer, they just want the information. We do this for free come in, we have lunch, and when we could meet together when people have lunch. And we would give them the law, like here is what it takes to build a case here are the statutes, these are the things that you should be seeing in your case. And, and I think it again and empowers people, right, and it builds a stronger community.
Davina: Our legal system is so complex to begin with. And then when you add in, you know, racism to the mix, and you know, gender roles and things like that, and our cultural beliefs about that. You can see where people would feel like they just it’s too much. It’s too much. Yeah. So it’s wonderful that you’re doing that work.
Tell us, you know, I love to talk about business and and talk about the running of the business and the growing in the business. And I know you do too. Tell me about your experience in growing your law firm and how it may be different than what you saw modeled for you before. Are there some challenges that you feel you come up against? Are there some things you think that were easier for you because of your prior experience in in the business side?
Alycia: You know, I think what’s interesting for me is that, I’ve noticed that sometimes things can be a little bit more difficult actually. And it’s sometimes I have to remind myself, like, Hey, you did this for somebody else, you can do this for yourself. But I think the difference, and I will tell you, there’s a lot of things that I have a completely different perspective on now, owning my actual firm than even managing another firm, you know, is different when you when you completely have control and responsibility over everything, versus when you’re making the decisions over everything, but you don’t have complete responsibility over it.
So there definitely is a lot of insight I gained being on the other side of this. But I will tell you that when I started my practice, I have a seven year old so my baby was a one or two years old when I started the practice. So he’s very young. And I think initially, I did not have a long term plan for what the practice would be. Remember, I wasn’t even sure what practice area I was going to stay in it, it definitely became a little bit of a lifestyle, business. And I think that’s the thing that I caution people against as much as possible because that is going to be an expert contributors for growth if you don’t have an idea where you want it to be and you end up making it a lifestyle crisis or business.
Now sometimes that could be what your family needs. And I think you just have to recognize it as that But after a certain point, you know, I realized like, okay, you know, Jacob, my baby is is, is getting a little older, I can plant some firmer roots, and I can start to own this path to growth. But I think initially it was, you know, being able to be around for my kids, I’m very involved in my three boys, I was very involved in as going, I was now able to attend everything I wanted to attend. And this gave me the opportunity to do that. Now, the focus is definitely on growing the practice, and making sure that all the foundations that we set over the last few years, are leading us down a consistent path toward growth.
And that and the biggest thing demeanor has been understanding our numbers, having systems in place where we are consistent with the way that we put in our data, and that we have case management systems that allow us to do adequate reporting, because a lot of times our gut instincts about what things are just wrong, and have surprises when you look back at them. You’d be you’d be surprised.
Davina: Right? Right. You know, you bring up an interesting point about the lifestyle business first, versus growing up a business, you know, as first as opposed to a lifestyle, you know, kind of law firm law practice. I hold women lawyers in my community when the law firm owners in my community, and the number one reason that most started their own practice was for that flexibility, because a lot of them are raising children. And when they’re young, needing that sort of flexibility and not feeling like they can find that in a traditional law firm environment.
And, and I do you think there are seasons, you know, that we can I tell people, you can’t have it all, you just may not be able to have it all at the same exact time, right. But over a career, and a lifetime. You can have have it all if that’s what you want. And reaching a point where you can focus on growing a business entity, as opposed to just kind of being a freelance lawyer, so to speak. What are some of the things that have been challenges for you in and maybe lessons that you’ve learned in hiring, let’s say, or training attorneys.
Alycia: So I think some of the lessons have been in I think some of the lessons have really been in, in being less afraid to make that initial step. I think that’s a fear that we have when we start our own practices, is when are we ready to do that? And can we afford it and you know, have we set up our systems to make it easier for people to come in and do the work, and when you work for yourself is hard to delegate when you have to have somebody come in. So you just continue to do everything yourself. But you can’t you can’t grow your reach or your maximum capacity. And you can’t go beyond that.
So I think in my own practice, that’s what I’ve seen, I think, in the previous practice, was, you know, meant hiring attorneys. We definitely looked at, you know, personality that was that culture, I think that’s a big thing. My main thing was we were a value practice was making sure they understood what that meant. And some people you know, are coming from other types of practice areas where you’re not handling as many cases as are going to eight or 10 hearings a week. And that can be a lot for some people.
So it’s really understanding, making sure they understand the culture, making sure they understand the expectations, and then providing the right amount of support, after the onboarding process, to make sure that they’re going to be successful. So not just saying here, here, you know, hey, here you go. But here’s what you need. And I’m here for you. And, you know, what do what do you need from me, you know, and continuing to assess two weeks, one month, two months, three months. And then after that, though, we don’t just do the 90 days. And then next time you talk to me in a year, you know, we have quarterly reviews, we’re going to talk about what you’re doing. And we’re gonna talk about how to make you successful.
And I can tell you, Davina, there’s been attorneys I’ve had to terminate, you know, over the years, unfortunately. And, you know, when I left the practice, a lot of them refer businesses I can, I can say you have to have a relationship with most of people that I even terminated. They knew that I worked for them. My goal was to work for them and help them be better professionals. You know, we know that everyone doesn’t stay in the place that they are now, people aren’t saying like I did 16 years in one place anymore, right? So if you’re coming to me, I want you to be better for having spent time with me and my business. And I don’t expect you to stay forever, but I’m going to do what I can to make you sick. That’s what whether it’s in this business or my other businesses, so that is always my goal.
Davina: Right. I think that’s such sage advice. Because I’ve seen a lot of women law firm owners struggling with people working with them for a while and then leaving, and then they just take it so hard, and then they struggle to sort of fine. They take it personally, they struggle to find the next person because they feel like they’ve been burned. And one of the things that, you know, I point out, it’s just what you said is that the, when somebody you’re planning on having this business for 10, 20, 30 years, if you are, do you really expect that you’re not going to have attrition, that you’re not going to have people leaving, that you’re not going to have new people coming in.
I mean, people just don’t work places for 30 years anymore, most of the time. Now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t those unicorns, but you know, people want people get bored, they want a new opportunity, they want to try a different practice area, they want to open their own place, and finding a way to sort of put that in, it’s in the right frame. And I love the frame that you share with us, where you’re you’re looking at them and saying, you know, I want you to be successful in your life. And sometimes they’re at a point where they’ve reached the end of their journey with this firm, because they need to grow. And they need to go somebody go someplace else to do that. And it has nothing to do with the the people at the existing firm. Right?
Alycia: Exactly, exactly.
Davina: Have you found it to be a challenge hiring yourself now, even though you have this experience? Because it does feel so personal, when you have your own firm? Have you had any of those sort of experiences or you were able to sort of take that philosophy with you?
Alycia: So I can tell you that initially. Initially, I did a lot of I did more contract. work, I work with some other agencies, where I could have attorneys do some work here and there. And I think part of that was just to just understanding exactly what I wanted to build before I brought someone in is what is it that I’m trying to build. And I think over the last, you know, year or so I’ve really kind of laid out an actual plan for what I want it to be over the next five and 10 years, understanding, you know, how it matches with my lifestyle. And then, you know, for me, so actually, our first associates, our first full time associate I should say, because we’ve had a part time associate before is going to be starting February 1, we’re actually just moving towards that.
Davina: Oh, wow. Congratulations.
Alycia: Thank you. And so it, I will tell you that I probably could have done this a while ago. And I think that’s something that we realize, too, is that a lot of times we kind of continue to do things because we’re either afraid or uncertain how to do them, when to do them if there’s going to be enough work. And I probably would have hired this attorney. The actual plan was to hire, I think around March. And then something happened in March that changed everything.
Davina: Oh Wow! I wonder what that was?!
Alycia: And so it put it off for a while because again, it was a lot of uncertainty there. So actually, the plan was to do this a year ago, a year ago now. But no, I do think it’s still funny, like those lessons that I learned working for someone else, it is something that a little bit, I have to remind myself, when I’m doing it for myself, and in my own practice is still a reminder, and I will tell you this, it’s still a constant reminder, having you know, groups like blogger to your Facebook group, for your community, some other masterminds.
Sometimes when you when you’re a law firm owner, and you’re by yourself, you’re in a vacuum, and it’s easy to kind of get in your head about things. And sometimes you need those other people reminding you of how great you are and the things that you’re supposed to do that you know you’re supposed to do, and that you can do them. And I think that’s why community is so important. But no it, you know, remind myself sometimes to do the things that I know, I know how to do.
Davina: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s just different when when you’re the one, when you’re when it’s coming out of your bank account, like when you’re the ones gonna stroke that check and pay somebody else, everybody’s gonna have a moment of pause, it’s going to be different than if they’re working for another firm, you know, and it’s not their money at stake. Right. Um, but, you know, if we certainly know from there’s just enough evidence and data that when you add attorneys, you’re adding, you’re adding profits to the bottom line, or you should be, you know
Alycia: Yes, exactly.
Davina: Because you’re expanding your capacity.
Alycia: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think definitely realizing when you’re beyond your capacity, there’s I mean, there’s days that I’ve had where I’m like, I’ve literally went out of hours in the day. I’m into the next day now and like this can’t continue.
Davina: Yeah, I get burnt out really fast. You get burnt out so fast that way.
Davina: Yeah. I mean, you could be passionate about your work and absolutely love it and still get burned out. And so what We talked you touched a little bit on your business and getting referrals from, you know, former from people that you’ve terminated from the last practice, but what kinds of things are you finding are good marketing tools for you, that you’re engaging in is kind of helping you grow your firm.
Alycia: So some of the things I’ve found to be the best in terms of marketing is providing one is just providing information, right, with no strings attached to say, you know, the those the events that we were doing for the father’s rights, for example, were free events that I didn’t know at the time, you know, we’ve worked face, initial one was there, we provided lunch, it was a free event, 20 people came, I had at that time 100% conversion rate, everyone that came to that event, within six months hires me in some form.
So it was it was a free event that probably cost me $90 for, you know, flowers and marketing materials. And so it pays it pays dividends. And then on top of that, you know, people email, other people or people started following me because they couldn’t attend the lunch because either all the spots were taken, or they couldn’t make it. And I literally had a client, Davina, hire me, whose mother got information from the very first one, three years ago, hired me a month and a half ago.
Alycia: And so my information stayed with them that long. So I think the community events, you know, doing things for free giving information for free, it establishes you as a thought leader, somebody that people are going to continue to go to for information and family law is one of those practices that you’re not going to need it right now. And it’s one where people are going to shop around for a while, you know, if they’re thinking about the britany, mice are looking but they haven’t decided to separate. So if they find it, they remember to continue to come back to you for information when they are ready and against that lead time to be very long, then it helps them.
So that has been helpful the event, the podcast. So we have the house divided podcast, I bring on experts in other areas, therapists, real estate agents, we talk about those things that go around the litigation process, like how to build back up your credit after a divorce, had recruiter on talking about how to get back into work. So have you ever worked for a number of years because you were a stay at home parent. And then those people, you get to leverage their audiences and those people were for your business.
So those are additional ways. And then we have the blog posts and a lot of dishes connecting with people and reminding them about what you do. And then you can do some the other paid forms of advertising as well. But those are main things. It’s just that, you know, talking to people.
Davina: Yeah, I you know, I think it’s interesting, you’re talking about the value of giving away information. And so many attorneys have fear around. If I give them information, I’m going to give them the answers, then why are they going to hire me? Or what do they need me for if they know how to go do it? That has not been your experience, obviously. So tell me why you think that is?
Alycia: What I don’t worry as much. I think sometimes when you give people information, they realize that they can’t or don’t want to do it themselves. I think the more that people see how complex some of these cases can get, or how they can turn on some small nuance that they weren’t had no clue with coming at them, they’re more likely to trust you to handle it for them. And you know, we all know that, you know, there are things that we can do in our own homes, we can do a lot with and watch television or YouTube and do some type of DIY project.
But we also know it might be a lot easier and safer for us to hire a professional to do it for us. And when we’re talking about families, we’re talking about your children when we’re talking about assets that you work your entire life to build up that you don’t want to lose. You know why? Why should you take the chance that you could do it better? And I think, you know, give it a lot of as lawyers, we know that a lot of people are going to be pro se right. And they those are people sometimes have difficulty getting through the courts.
It makes a lot harder, give them the information that helps them to there’s going to always be a group of people that are going to be pro se. Right. We can help give information to the people who do that. But then also remind people that hey, this might be why you want a lawyer.
Davina: Yeah, yeah, I think some people might may start out and say, Oh, I’m going to try to do this myself and then go Yeah, no, I can’t do this myself. Because it’s really our our legal system is complex for you know, think about, think about the struggles that attorneys have. Yeah, and imagine if you’re a lay person without that, you know, the language and the information and insight and connecting to the people that are there. You know, and everything. So, I agree with you completely, that it’s that it’s really, that people appreciate that, that you’ve reached out to them and given so freely to them. And then I also think it does just show, you know, just holds up a mirror and shows like, are you really? Do you really want to do this by yourself? Or do you need to get an attorney? So I love that philosophy in that approach. I want to hear more about your podcast. And so when did you start your podcast?
Alycia: So I actually have two podcasts. So the first one is A Growth Goal. And A Growth Goal I started actually four years ago, I think, like yesterday or something. So the Growth Goal is a podcast that talks about the business with just just running a business. And I started that because, again, in the, in the beginning of my practice, I felt like there wasn’t enough very transparent resource resources on how to run a small business, if you want to run a startup and build $2 million, billion dollars and sell it off, you know, there’s books for that, when there wasn’t, and you want to get public companies information, you can go on the sec website and find that out.
But in terms of like, what it really looks like to do that, there wasn’t a lot of resources to do that. And so I started that podcast, in order to basically help myself, you know, and help others in the in the long run, with getting the information about what it looks like to run a small business, I think what you’re doing here is showing women, the way that we do, it can be different, but you’re not alone. And here are some additional tools for how you can get to your goals, we need these types of forums to be able to do that.
And then the A House Divided was because, you know, in talking to my clients kind of again, being an advocate, there are limitations to what I can do as an attorney, and my wanting to help people, I did get a degree at the college, still as a background. But I wanted to be able to help people be better off when they left me. So same thing I do with professionals, I want my clients to be better off for having met me. And that means that once you finish or even as you’re going through the legal process in your custody or divorce matter, there are a lot of other things that you need, you might need a therapist or suggest a therapist, you might need a co parenting counselor to tell you how to navigate this new world that you’re in.
And so a house divided is really about to help you have a house that got separated into two, but you’re still a family. And here are the things and people, other people that are in our community that can help you with these other things that a family lawyer can help you with. And I really saw that I was giving these resources out to my clients individually. I’m like, you know what, let me just put it together in one place, and other people can can get help from this one place.
Davina: Right? Right. I love that. I love that. I love both the ideas for both your podcast. And I definitely feel like I’m a better person for having had this conversation with you today. Thanks so much.
Alycia: Thank you. It was a pleasure talking with you.
Davina: All right, tell me how we can find out more about your firm and your podcasts. Where can we find those?
Alycia: Sure. So the firm is Kinchloe Law so you can go to kinchloe.com. On that website is a link to the A House Divided podcast so you can get there easily from there on the first page. And then the Growth Goal podcast. If you go to the growthgoal.com you can find all the episodes for the Growth Goal there.
Davina: Right, thank you so much for sharing, and I’m sure everybody’s gonna take a minute to go check those out. And probably you’ll have some new fans on the on the one about business growth for sure. So thank you so much.
Alycia: Thank you, Davina. And those podcasts, I guess that are there for the community. So if there’s anything you would ever like us to talk about on there, if you’re listening, send me a message. That’s what it’s there for. I will try to get a guest on our topic covered to help you out.
Davina: Great, great, thank you.
Alycia: Thank you, Davina.
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