On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Meagan Landress, an advisor with Student Loan Planner, to discuss how to shift from being six figures in student loan debt to having a six figure net worth. Since 2016, Student Loan Planner has consulted on over $1.1 billion of student loan debt and found over $214 million in projected savings for the professionals they’ve worked with.
Meagan says, “I first started my career working at a personal financial planning firm, and a problem we consistently ran into was that with highly educated individuals, there typically came a lot of student loan debt. I continued to be surprised with the amount of debt we were starting to see, so I started diving deeper into the federal system of student loans and I found that there was a lot you can leverage. The federal system is very complicated, but we can find ways to leverage it in someone’s favor.”
We chat about dealing with student loan debts, as well as:
- Leveraging income-driven plans and forgiveness opportunities
- Determining financial priorities
- Finding an optimal repayment plan that will allow you to achieve financial independence later in life
- Working with a financial planner
- And more
Mentioned in this episode:
Davina Frederick: Hello and welcome to Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. We believe all women lawyers deserve to be wealthy women lawyers. Our mission is to provide thought-provoking, powerful and practical information to help you in creating your own sustainable wealth-generating law firm without overwork or overwhelm so you can live your best life.
I’m your host, Davina Frederick, and I’m here today with Meagan Landress of Student Loan Planner to discuss your student loans and how you can shift from being six figures in debt to having a six-figure net worth. Doesn’t that sound great? So welcome, Meagan. We’re so excited to have you as a guest on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast and to discuss this topic which is so important to many women lawyers today.
Meagan Landress: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It is a big topic. It’s oftentimes one of the bigger stressors in someone’s financial life. And, you know, it’s a big problem these days. Lots of people are talking about it.
Davina: That’s right. Yeah. And I know it’s a huge problem of women lawyers, and then a lot of women lawyer groups on social media. And it is a topic of discussion that comes up quite frequently because it really prevents a lot of people from creating the wealth that they desire because they’re burdened with these loans.
And I know that some people have told stories of paying, they’ve paid huge amounts of money and they owe more than they did when they first started paying them. So I’m really eager to dive in and find out the solutions that you guys have come up with to help people in this position. But before we do that, I want everybody to get to know a little bit about you. So tell us about you and your journey to doing this kind of work.
How Meagan Became a Student Loan Advisor
Meagan: Yeah, so I was always, well, I’ll say always since maybe high school, I was always a little bit of a finance nerd. I started doing bookkeeping at a gym facility I worked out in high school and continued to do that through college. And so that drove me to study finance. And so I first started my career working at a personal financial planning firm. And I actually, you know, our firm specialized in working with practicing professionals and I was on the attorney team, I guess you could say, where we specifically worked with attorneys.
And so, you know, from that side of things, you know, we were doing comprehensive financial planning for attorneys in Georgia. I live in Georgia. And a problem we consistently ran into was with these, you know, highly educated individuals, there came a lot of student loan debt, typically. And in our world at the time, it was just okay, it’s a debt. Let’s find out the best way to pay it down aggressively. Let’s look at refinancing.
And I continued to just, you know, be surprised, I guess you could say, with just the amount of debt we were starting to see. And these were starting to become mortgage sized balances. And I was thinking there’s got to be a better way then, you know, just paying this off like our hair’s on fire. And so I started diving in a lot deeper into the federal system of student loans, private student loans. And I found that there was a lot you can leverage. You know, the federal system is very, I’ll say complicated, but we can find ways to leverage it in someone’s favor.
And so I actually went out on my own after working at that firm for about three or four years and ran into Travis, the founder of Student Loan Planner, and my passion for helping people with student loans and his passion drove me to want to join his team. And when he asked, I immediately said, Yes. So now I’m consulting with him in Student Loan Planner helping people navigate all types of student loan situations, all types of balances, all types of backgrounds. And so that’s where I’m at, or that’s how I got to where I am here.
Davina: Thanks so much for sharing that. So let’s talk about these balances. What kinds of balances are you seeing on average? Because I know in my discussion with women law firm owners, six figures is the norm. The kind of, probably an average around 250 is very common. And people often like I said, will pay that and then they’ll, years later they’ll be paying it and if years later, it’ll be 300. I mean, because the way interest rates are set up. And probably the most I’ve heard is about 600,000. So what kind of numbers are you seeing?
Meagan: Yeah, I would say average for our Student Loan Planner cases, we’ve seen about 226 average, but I have worked with folks with 300, 400, 500,000. If they’re married to an attorney, then we’re getting close to a million, potentially.
Davina: Right. And that’s, yeah, that’s the real kicker too is that when people get married, become a couple, and then they combine their student loan debt, it’s really, you really get into some high numbers, then. Half million to a million easily.
Meagan: Mm-hmm. Yes, it’s very, and, you know, highly educated individuals, they require, you know, they’re going through graduate programs, which are not inexpensive, and, you know, many years of schooling post-undergrad, it’s just, you know, it’s just interesting to see the rise of the cost of attendance and how fast, you know, it, the cost of attendance has outpaced inflation, it’s outpaced the increase of earning wages.
And so it’s just tough to keep up. And so the federal system, you know, having federal student loans and being able to leverage some of the income-driven plans and forgiveness opportunities does become people’s safe haven, because it almost becomes, you know, impossible. I won’t say impossible, but it almost comes really hard to imagine trying to pay off a balance in those ranges with maybe an income that’s not quite there, or it’s a fraction of that balance, you know?
Davina: Right, right. And that’s a huge factor as well, is that I think, when people, the thinking when people take on this kind of debt is yes, I’m going to get into some debt and I’m also going to get a six-figure job right when I get out of law school, you know, would be an example from the lawyer arena. I’m going to get a six-figure job and I’ll easily be able to pay this off.
And of course, they’re not really sitting and doing the math and calculating what the interest rate is going to do. And also, they’re not taking into account that a lot of times when you graduate from law school, you don’t get a six-figure job. You may start out making $50,000 a year, $60,000 a year, depending on where you are. I mean, only the top 5% of the class get the premium jobs, pay the higher wage. You know, and so that leaves 95% of us having to come up with a different plan.
Meagan: Mm-hm. And that’s, you know, what’s interesting, too about student loan planning is I know, we’re talking about balances and the scariness of those right now, but really, when we’re starting to look at how to plan around student loan debt, it does come down to what the balance to income ratio is, or the income to balance ratio is. That helps direct the plan.
And so what’s so great about I think, the federal system and the income-driven options is, you know, if you do you know, graduate, you’re making 50,000 80,000, but you’ve got 300,000 of student loan debt, you’re not going to be underwater. We’re going to have access to an income-driven option which keeps your payment proportionate to income as we go on. And each one of those income-driven plans has some kind of forgiveness opportunity, which means after 20 or 25 years, whatever balance is left over isn’t forgiven.
Which I know 20 and 25 years, still sounds like a long time, but we have a $300,000 balance or a mortgage-size balance, you know, to pay it off in normal time, you know, 20 or 25 years, we’re probably looking at that time frame anyways if we were even going to pay it off. So that’s oftentimes what we’re strategizing with folks is, you know, do we need to be treating this debt as a debt and paying it off as soon as possible and maybe looking at refinancing? Or do we need to be treating this more like a tax and pursuing that forgiveness route over time?
And then at that point, our mindset totally switches. We’re not treating it like a debt, we want to pay as little as possible to maximize how much we can get forgiven. Oftentimes, that, you know, when someone’s income is much lower than their balance, that is going to be the most efficient route over time. And it allows them to also save and do other things with their finances or focus on other financial priorities, which is huge, you know?
Davina: Right. That’s not something that, first of all, it flips on its head, you know, the standard thinking from folks that like the Dave Ramsey’s of the world and the Suze Orman’s of the world that you need to pay off that student debt loan as soon as possible, strive as priority. And one of the things that I’ve talked with my clients about and kind of my philosophy on that is that what I find is people get so caught up in paying off debt that they don’t do any sort of saving or investing.
And that’s really what creates, is that it, that’s what creates wealth is that accumulation of assets over time and the compound interest and the earnings that you get back from that. And, but if you have this debt-driven like, I’m just going to pay off all my debt before I make any, before I save anything, before I invest anything, you’ll find yourself 20, 30 years later with nothing to show for it and you’ll probably continue to always be in debt, because you haven’t been able to accumulate any money or any wealth, so you’ll just borrow more from something else, you know? Credit card or whatever.
Meagan: Yeah. And I say, yeah, and to your point that’s 100% accurate in my mind, because I think there always is a healthy balance between and, you know, I love Dave Ramsey’s thought process about like, behavior around debt and consumer debt and living below your means, I love that. But when it comes to student loans, I just cringe every time I hear him say, you know, don’t rely on forgiveness, don’t rely on these strategies, you know?
I just feel like it does so much more damage than it helps people because, you know, just like you said, if we’ve got these big balances and we’re taking, you know, 1520 years to pay them off, you know, pay them all off aggressively, then we will be student loan debt free at some point, but we’re still going to have a zero dollar net worth. And so we’re kind of shooting ourselves in the foot a couple times because we lost out on all that time in the market. And it probably wasn’t even the more efficient repayment plan at the end of the day. So you probably paid more than you needed to.
Davina: Right, right. So that is really interesting. And I’m sure you’re familiar with Robert Kiyosaki and the author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad and his philosophy and the way he teaches, and one of the things he talks about when it comes to wealth is investing, like creating assets. So the more assets you create, then the more, the quicker you’ll get wealthier.
And, of course, he’s a very wealthy man. And he talks about leveraging other people’s money. And he also says, and this is very controversial, that the last thing he’s paying is the government. You know, like, the last thing you, and that’s what student loans are, if you’re borrowing, if you have government student loans, you know, student loans from the government.
And so it’s a very interesting, it’s a very different perspective than what most of us who grow up in the middle class and you work hard, you borrow money to go to school, you get an education, and then you’re going to get a better-paying job and you’re going to pay off the debt. And then you’ll be able to buy the house and have the 2.5 kids and all that kind of stuff. And we just really don’t live in that kind of America anymore. I don’t know if we ever did, but we certainly don’t know. Do you agree?
Meagan: Yeah. Well, and, you know, I think his concept too, is more of a mathematical approach to finance in general. Like, I think it does make sense to leverage other people’s money in certain circumstances. But I think the problem with maybe our society is we have to have the behavior behind that as well, to not dig ourselves too deep or not bite off more than we can chew or not, you know, let keeping up with the Joneses effect that strategy.
So, you know, I’m all for, you know, leveraging our student loan debt in the sense that we can pay, you know, what we need to pay, we can have an efficient repayment plan, but let’s find a balance. I think a balance between saving and paying down debt is always worth talking about because at the end of the day, your savings rate is going to be the most important thing when it comes to your financial independence. It’s the only thing that’s going to get you to financial independence.
Davina: Right, right. So that bears repeating. Your savings rate is the only thing that’s gonna get you to financial independence. The amount of money that you manage to hang onto and accumulate.
Meagan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Davina: So tell me the biggest challenge you see the clients of Student Loan Planner face when they come to you. Like, what are you think, when they come to you, where are, what is life like for them at that moment?
Personalized Strategies for Tackling Student Debt
Meagan: Yeah, I feel like with Student Loan Planner, you know, the typical client will have, has done some research, they’ve gotten a little overwhelmed with their options because within the federal system, there’s four different income-driven plans, there’s a bunch of different talk about forgiveness and, you know, what happens if you’re married on this plan? Does that count my spouse’s income or not? So there’s just a lot of questions. And I think it’s hard to sift through. And so I feel like the folks that come to us have done a little digging already.
They’re a little confused about a couple topics, or, you know, maybe they feel like they have a good plan in place but they just want someone to double-check it. They want to make sure that they’re not missing anything because they know that student loans are just a little bit of a different kind of debt, or beast, I guess you should say. And so, but oftentimes the same, I guess, feeling behind scheduling that call is similar. There’s some stress, there’s some uncertainty behind their strategy and if they’re doing the right thing. So, you know, they’ll come to us, we’ll go through a consultation to walk through their specific situation.
And based on their income, their future income trajectory and some other financial circumstances in their life, you know, we walk through all the different routes that they could take with their student loan plan and stack them up against each other to review what the most optimal plan would be. And in addition to that, we’ll talk through savings rate, and, you know, this is the plan that looks to be optimal, let’s talk about how we incorporate our savings rate into this plan as well.
And we’ll project out, you know, this is what it would look like if we continue to stay the course on this plan. And if we were consistent with saving, you know, this amount of money per month or per year, however, we want to look at it, and then we can compare that again too, to any other route to take. And so from typically ending, you know, that planning call, you know, I always feel like the stress and anxiety around their situation is, is relieved and they feel more confident about their situation and more confident about the direction of how to take their student loan plan and how to think about it going forward too.
I think it is such a, I think our society has kind of made debt such a taboo topic to talk about and it’s a bad thing, and people should feel bad for having debt. And that’s not the case. We want to kind of reframe the mindset there to explain that this is not something you’re trapped with. We are not out of options. We have options to pursue that are really going to help us and not just our student loan plan, but also the rest of our finances.
Davina: Right. I know that I have heard stories of a number of people who they just are so overwhelmed by their student loan debt and they feel like they can’t get ahead in life. And so they just stop paying altogether. And they, until, you know, like they want to buy a house or something. And then they start jumping through hoops to try to repair the situation at that point. What would you say to somebody who just says, screw it, I’m not paying these anymore? What are the consequences of that?
Meagan: Yeah, so two separate sides of that road. So with federal student loans, I think the consequences are a little more severe because they, federal loans are not going to go away. They will, you know, they can go into default, they’ll be sold to a collections company, they’ll continue to try to collect but the federal government has extremely strong collections powers.
So they can garnish your wages, they can garnish your tax returns if you’re not paying on these federal loans. And, you know, I’ll say it is difficult to maybe not have a good plan or not have a good option available to you now with the income-driven options. So there’s always a way to figure out your next step. But that’s on the federal side. That’s typically what will happen there.
And it is, you can get yourself out of default by either going through a loan rehab program where you have to make on-time payments for nine months and then they remove the collection status from your credit report and they, or sorry, the default status and you’re back in good standing. So that’s maybe the longer route. Another route would be to consolidate out of default and that quickly pulls the loans out of default back into good standing. Or, you can pay the balance off in full. That’s the other option that they give you. So, usually not the option someone can do, yeah.
Davina: I wonder how many people have ever taken that option?
Meagan: Right. Yeah, the private side is a little different. Private companies do not have those strong authorities or powers to garnish wages or anything like that. But they will potentially be more a little more aggressive on suing you for the balance, if it’s within their statute of limitations to do so. And so sometimes, and actually, we just had a case, I think last week, in I want to say it was Colorado where someone got, you know, six figures of student loan debt discharged in bankruptcy.
Private loans are not, or private loans, I guess you should say, are more eligible for a bankruptcy or a successful discharge in bankruptcy than maybe federal loans, again, because federal loans have access to income-driven plans, but private loans don’t. Private loans, it’s a private debt, you have to pay it all off, there’s no forgiveness opportunity. And so, you know, it is a little easier to have that settled in bankruptcy because you can potentially prove undue hardship, where, you know, based on how much you’re required to pay the balance, you know, you’re just not able to financially support yourself and pay that balance off.
And so we did see somebody get a significant private balance discharged in bankruptcy last week, which can be interesting, I think that could be setting the tone for I think, the original misconception about bankruptcy and student loans is that it was impossible to discharge these loans. And it’s still pretty darn hard to do so with federal loans, but private loans, There’s a little more room there, I would say.
Davina: Yeah. An attorney colleague of mine, used to say that you basically have to be in an iron lung to be able to discharge your student loans in bankruptcy. But I think that that’s changed over the recent years because of this sort of tsunami of student loan debt that Americans are facing. And so I think that’s something that’s kind of new that we’re seeing in bankruptcy. And like you said, it really only can work for private loans, not government loans. What, tell me about, I’m really intrigued by this six figures in debt to six figures of net worth. Tell me how you guys help your clients make that transformation.
Six Figures of Debt to Six Figures of Net Worth
Meagan: Yeah. I think it does come down to first just getting over that big hurdle of what’s my plan? You know, what should I be focusing on? And so, you know, once we know if we’re going to treat the student loans like a debt, and typically that’s the case when someone’s balance is below their annual income, that’s typically when we need to be paying it off sooner rather than later. But when someone’s balance is much greater than their annual income and will be for a period of time, or for the, probably the life of the loan, that’s when we need to be focusing on the forgiveness route or the longer-term forgiveness route.
And so once we navigate that, once we have that in place, that tells us, okay, well, we know exactly how much we’ll, well, close to exactly, we have an idea of how much we’ll be paying per month if we’re on an income-driven plan based off of your income trajectory, or, you know exactly how much you’ll be paying if you were to treat it like a debt and commit to paying X amount per month. But then we really do dive into your savings rate.
And, you know, part of our little calculator that you can actually download this on our website if you wanted to play around with this, but it’s called our net worth calculator that we’ll take our clients through, and that you can take yourself through on this last page of the Excel document from our website. But we plug in, you know, how much of our income is going to be going towards our student loan plan. You know, is that 7% 8%? What is that number? And then we’ll want to look at, okay, how much can we start committing to savings? And how much are we already saving?
A lot of times folks are already contributing to the match if their employer offers one or they’re already contributing maybe 5% or 10% of their income or something for the asset in some degree. And so we’ll add those together, we’ll look at Hey, what does financial independence look like for you? How, or how much income would you need to be living off of in the future? And we walk through, you know what that’s going to look like over time, if we continue to pay the loans in that same capacity. You know, maybe 8% going to our loans.
And we’re still able to save 10% of our income towards our future financial independence. And we walk them through what that’s going to look like long term. And if they don’t like that financial independence number, you know, if it takes 47 years to get there, then maybe we need to increase our savings rate. And so we really start to hone in on, you know, what the appropriate savings rate is going to be for this person to help them achieve their financial independence when they want to be financially independent.
And that’s different for everybody. And that’s, you know, part of planning, that’s something that we want to paint a target out there for and continue to work towards it. But it starts with a really healthy savings rate. And we talk about general rules of thumb. You know, a golden savings parameter towards assets would be anywhere between 10 and 20% of your gross income or more going towards saving for long term financial independence.
And so we just have those conversations. We layer in the student loan plan to make sure that they know how each impact each other and how together you know, the plan, and our savings rate is going to help us get to where we want to go and that really starts to change the mind frame from, oh, I have to focus on this debt, or Oh, I need to throw every single penny towards this to pay, I have a really great balanced approach. I’ve got an efficient student loan plan, I know what to expect there and I know that I need to prioritize savings now. And so it is kind of just a mind frame switch too once we have those numbers and that plan idea,
Davina: One of the, I love that philosophy of shifting instead of this mindset of, I have to pay off all my debt before I can start saving or investing. And what but let’s talk about how, where you save, how you save. I mean, what do you do? Because I think a lot of people are scared of investing because they don’t understand it.
And also, you know, we’re always reading, anytime you read a financial planner’s book, they’re doing calculations and they’re going so if you make 8%, on your, you know, return on your investment or a 10% or 12% and then when you actually start looking, you’re like, Okay, this CD pays 1% and if I put it in the stock market, I’m gonna lose money, you know, because I don’t know what I’m doing.
And so I think that’s where a lot of fear comes in for people. You know, they could save the money, but then when it comes to investing, we read these pie in the sky sort of returns and I think we think to ourselves, we’re expecting a return, you know, month after month, and really a lot of times the returns or like over the life of the amount of money, you know? An average return maybe. What do you, what kind of advice do you have for people in that position?
Find a Trustworthy Professional (Who is Not a Salesperson)
Meagan: Yeah. And that is, you know, it is an intimidating world, I guess you could say. And so we talk about, you know, part of our process is we talk about just the simplicity of getting our savings rates up. When it comes to vehicles, you know, if that’s something that someone feels uncomfortable managing themselves, because you can go, you can open an IRA or SEP IRA or, you know, an investment account, brokerage account with any custodian. There’s plenty of companies out there that you could just open an account with and choose your investments. I think that’s where a lot of people get intimidated.
They don’t know what to invest in. And so, if that’s something that makes you uncomfortable, I typically do suggest, hey, you should maybe be entertaining working with a professional here. You know, I sometimes use the analogy that, you know, an attorney, well, and this might not even translate into what I was saying, but, you know, an attorney won’t be representing themselves in court, I would say, right? And I’ll say, you know, for me, being a financial advisor, I want someone to help me too, you know, with my investment choices because behavior really factors into investing in anything finance.
And so it’s always helpful to, I think, incorporate a professional that takes the emotion out of it, helps you achieve your goals. If you’re very risk-averse, you know, that’s something that they’re going to take into account. But I think, you know, if you’re uncomfortable doing it yourself, finding a professional, an investment advisor or we recommend working with a CFP, or a certified financial planner which has that fiduciary obligation to each and every client that they work with to make sure that, you know, their best interests align with yours and they are doing everything they can to help you achieve your financial goals.
You know, that’s what we typically recommend is, you know, work with someone that you trust. If it’s investing the money, specifically, or just educating you on your options so you can go and do that on your own, I think that starts the conversation to get that topic to be less scary and it starts just the education process, too. And I think that could be helpful.
Davina: Right, right. What’s the best way to go about finding a certified financial planner? Because think there can be some confusion with people too. A lot of people call themselves financial advisors who may be selling a product. So they, the biggest example that comes to mind is insurance policies, whole life insurance policies, and their job is to sell whole life insurance policies and they hold themselves out as financial advisors, but really, they’re salespeople. So finding somebody who is not trying to sell you a particular product but is helping you find what works best for you. What’s the best way to go about finding somebody?
Meagan: Yeah, we typically recommend to go to XY Planning Network. It’s just the letters XY Planning Network. This planning network is a group of CFPs, or certified financial planners that are fee-only advisors. And so what this means is they receive no commissions at any avenue for any products or strategies that they recommend.
And so you can feel, I think, confident in knowing that there is no additional incentive behind what they’re recommending to you. So, you know, a CFP will certainly take you through a full comprehensive financial plan, looking at every area of your finances and then they will make recommendations on, you know, I think you should be investing here. Let’s open an account here. Let’s invest in this fund. You know, working with a fee-only CFP could just really alleviate that thought that, why are they recommending this company?
Or why are they recommending this product specifically? It really alleviates them because they don’t get paid at all off of any strategy or product that they recommend. They’re paid only by the fee that they charge you for their service. And so I recommend that site to find a CFP in your area. You can search by area or you can search by name. And I think that’s the best place to start.
Davina: Yeah, that’s great. That’s great advice. I know a lot of people will appreciate that. You guys also have a course on your website. Tell me about that course.
Meagan: Yeah, so we do have an investment course. I think we just closed it this past month, I want to say. We opened it, I think last month. But it does, so this course will walk you through the basics of what you need to know to start investing. And so that could maybe be another resource, you know, once we open that back up in the future, but that really takes you through the nuts and bolts of, you know, what different accounts are, what, you know, is a good rate of return, how to invest, what dollar cost averaging is.
It really kind of starts to educate you on some of the basics. And then some simple but impactful strategies to start getting you off the ground with saving and investing. And so that information, you can get more information on that from our website and our E blast, we let everybody know, and we’re opening that back up again. But that could be a good resource as well for someone who might not be ready to work with someone specifically yet or entertain working with the person but might want to get a little educated in some of these areas. And then maybe later on, take that route.
Davina: Good. And that is, your website is studentloanplanner.com?
Davina: Okay, good. So, before we wrap up, tell me what would be your best advice to give somebody who’s staring down the barrel of these hefty student loans and they feel like they just can’t advance in life because they have these loans? What would you tell them the first thing they need to do? Or the most important thing they need to do?
Beginning to Get a Handle On Your Loans
Meagan: I would say the most important thing would be if you need help, ask for help. And having a plan is, well, I think regardless, having a plan is going to alleviate that anxiety or that stress around your student loan situation. And it’ll open up the doors for you to be able to focus on other financial priorities. So I would say just the first two things that come to mind is ask for help when you need it. We’re certainly here to help if you have a student loan debt situation that you want some help or clarity around. And then just getting a plan in place. Having a plan, and that helps you, I think, ease your mind as well to know that things are on track.
Davina: Right, right. Well, thanks so much for being here today and sharing today. I think you’ve shared a lot of valuable information and maybe given people a different perspective on their student loan debt than they’ve had. So I thank you for that. Tell us again, how we can find Student Loan Planner and also how we can connect with you if we want to.
Meagan: Yeah, so studentloanplanner.com is our website. If you’d like updates on just anything in the student loan world going on, you can subscribe to our newsletter. We send out a very short and sweet update once a week. And if you wanted to schedule a consult, I consult specifically on Mondays and Wednesdays. And so you can take a look at exactly what a consult entails, what the cost is, what to expect on our website as well. And if you wanted to land on my calendar, I’m on Mondays and Wednesdays.
Davina: Great. Great. Well, thanks so much, Megan. We really appreciate it.
Meagan: Oh, thank you so much for having me.